Did the rambam care about his fellow jew?
רמב"ם הלכות אבל פרק א' הל' י
[י] כל הפורשין מדרכי ציבור, והם האנשים שפרקו עול המצוות מעל צווארן, ואינן נכללין בכלל ישראל בעשיית המצוות וכבוד המועדות, וישיבת בתי כנסייות ובתי מדרשות, אלא הרי הן כך בני חורין לעצמן, כשאר האומות, וכן המינים והמשומדים והמוסרין–כל אלו אין מתאבלין עליהן; אלא אחיהם ושאר קרוביהם לובשין לבנים ומתעטפים לבנים, ואוכלים ושותים ושמחים: שאבדו שונאיו של הקדוש ברוך הוא, ועליהם הכתוב אומר "הלוא משנאיך ה', אשנא"
(תהילים קלט,כא
http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/e401.htm
How about the gemoro? or shulchon oruch?
Here's a psak from a contemporary rabbi, who's far from kanous or extremism
http://forum.bgu.co.il/index.php?showtopic=161777
and here's a surprisingly good list of sources, if you ignore his whining in between every source.
http://www.daatemet.org.il/articles/article.cfm?article_id=121
Judaism.com
March 11th, 2008 at 10:04 am
the problem with quotes in general and jewish quotes in particular in light of our long opinionated history there is always a quote to support any given stance.
but a more pertinent question is why did you assume a nickname of the illiterate man? any what draws you here? I mean if you think you must delineate boundaries of acceptable people so strongly (your prerogative), this site would the last place for you hang out?
We jews believe in minhag and there are cultural differences to approach. Russian jews were always accepting of others. A small milant group of Hungarians became dominat today largely because they survived in greater numbers than Polish or Russian traditional jews. Are you a Hungarian? Are you a wanna be Hungarian?
What is your ethnicity?
March 11th, 2008 at 10:11 am
That’s not a problem at all.
Let anyone with a different opinion bring the quotes to back up theirs, then we can have a discussion.
I brought a rambam and shulchon oruch. You replied with an unsubstantiated claim of minhag. You’ll have to do better than that. As for the rest, I don’t answer personal questions as a matter of policy.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:24 am
I am not interest in quotes as a matter of policy. I mean it. Tony Montana once wrote this on my blog, I think it applies to our conversation:
“Derivative speech is really just a subconscious way of guarding against intimacy. If you speak in slogans, aphorisms and cliches, you never have to expose yourself. You never have to experience the vulnerability of not knowing whether you’re the first person to have felt a certain way. There’s no Big Brother forcing people into derivative thinking. We live in the most free and open society in history. It is we who throw ourselves headlong behind the great, sheltering quotation marks that will finally render us impervious to real human intimacy in our daily discourses.”
March 11th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Finally you claim to be purely rational but it is patently obvious that is all but a mask and there is no better prove to the raging irrational storms inside your soul than your continues presence here.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:32 am
apparently you don’t see a difference between expressing yourself in someone elses words (quotes) and citing sources to corroborate something (quotes).
So here’s another quote
אם אין דעת הבדלה מנין.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:42 am
I claimed nothing. I asked for a rational response. Your baseless assumption about what I claim is almost as relevant as your speculation about the state of my soul.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:49 am
I am yet to see a post where you express something that needs corroborating. You posts are either emotional and intentionally provocative one liners or complete pure quotes to corroborate the emotional one liners.
Once again if havdola is so paramount for you, why are you here? I think you are afraid to express yourself and you come here to get high on the antidote.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:51 am
if you want to have a pilpil with zombies go to Lakewood, why are you here?
March 11th, 2008 at 11:04 am
ps Daas is not a instrument to achieve havdola.
Havdola is what happens between people when the channels of emotional connection are irrevocably broken, vdal.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:16 am
on the subject of
אבלות על מי שפרש מדרכי ציבור
Avrohom Avinu say HI, BESHT says HI, Moshe Rabeiny Says, Hi.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:31 am
I am yet to see a post where you express something that needs corroborating. You posts are either emotional and intentionally provocative one liners or complete pure quotes to corroborate the emotional one liners.
Doesn’t your second sentence kind of contradict your first one?
Why I’m here is another one of those personal questions I don’t answer. But who are you to ask?
March 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
“But who are you to ask?”
and who are you to quote?
March 11th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
you don’t see a difference between these two either, ha?
noch ein mazel you’re not a talmid chochom.
go talk to the rebbe in the smirnoff bottle, I’m out of patience.
March 11th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
The devil comes quoting scripture.
March 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
the piece about smirnoff bottle was a satire, the questions I asked you are real.
March 11th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
let me paraphrase.
if I don’t know you, if I don’t understand the context of who you are, then the quotes are dead as a discarded email.
This is important point for you to realize. You can’s be heard if you speak from behind the emotional iron curtain. You can overcompensate by ramping up the provocative content of your quotes but this will not hide the underlining reality. You are emotionally shot and you need ever increasing dose of provocation to remind yourself that you are still alive.
March 11th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Att: Poskim
Anybody familiar with piskei din which will make me happier about being jewish? Something along the lines of “the chilonim of today are tinokos shenishbu” or something like that?
And who is Daat Emet? Anybody have a clear picture as to what their agenda is?
March 11th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
“I don’t answer personal questions as a matter of policy.”
Whos policy??
March 11th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
7 fat policy???
March 11th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Mohammed,
there have been two or three other paranoid-schizophrenics like tzemach on 7fc. all of them, including him, could be counted as no more than brilliant, failed cranks if it were not for the dangerously inflated egos coupled with a psychopathic contempt for other human beings that they share in common.
on the other hand, 7fc and other blogs serve the important and necessary function of giving these potentially dangerous people a place to vent their grandiose, psychotic rage before they turn it either on themselves or others.
try to remember what someone else said somewhere else on 7fc, “you can’t argue with a sick mind.”
VP
March 11th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Hey autonomous creep, can say anything else except popping up here to insult me. Come and face me, pathetic, impotent moron.
March 11th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
“on the other hand, 7fc and other blogs serve the important and necessary function of giving these potentially dangerous people a place to vent their grandiose, psychotic rage before they turn it either on themselves or others.”
I should add that although this may be good for people like tzemach, it’s not so good for the blogs they use as their dumping grounds — as proven by his own failed attempts at purging his his own nasty demons on his own failed blog.
March 11th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
autonomous– you mean anonymous, right?
Mohammed must win the award for best expressed blogger on the block. ShitAlpin would be a close runner up, if not for the blessed sarcasm that only occasional, for me, can confuse the true meaning of what is being said. respect to Mohammed! Alhumdileela!
March 11th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
So, Daas Emes is the Israeli precursor to Footsteps, although with more theology. It’s ex-haredim out to clarify the wrongness of Jewish Theology on logical grounds, exposing incorrect talmudic statements about science and nature in order to discredit assumptions about the neo-infallible genius of Daas Torah. If it’s the same Daas Emes here, anyway.
March 11th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
This is not in a vacuum.
The Ramba”m says in Hilchos Mamrim that kiruv has virtually the same guidelines as pikuach nefesh — the Ramba”m would have gone far further than even Chaba”d to bring this guy back, and if after all of that (and remember, anyone who went “off the derech” because of what someone said or did would have found a friendly ear in the Ramba”m’s beis din), then PERHAPS this would be applicable…maybe.
Let’s not diss the Ramba”m. Please.
March 11th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
with all due respect to my esteemed grandpop, not everything he said should be considered relevant to us.
Sorry, Yitz.
March 11th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
VOX POP, you use this handle with a unique purpose of attacking me. You are a coward and a moron. People who run this blog should block you.
Somewhere I offended you, may be you the idiot guravitzer may be not but you are sure a pathetic empty individual. And there is only one reason to your attacks - bitter, impotent jealousy.
March 11th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
he was only human after all he begat me
March 11th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
“Salo” Ukrainian Lard Song:
True Jewish music:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SHVDIP0xGxw
March 11th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
B”H
Y-Love
The Rambam in Hilchos Mamrim talks about children of the Karaites or the like who thru no fault of their own were brought up that way and when they have moved among other Jews are still not to quick to observe mitzvot (eino mezarzin) .
The Rambam says not to be “to quick to kill them” and instead to try to bring them closer with “thick ropes of love” to the point when they will return “le’eitan haTorah”.
While I’m not argueing with what you are saying that kiruv is akin to pikuach nefesh the Rambam (at least Rambam in Hilchos Mamrim) requires some stretching to make it say that.
So Mohamad’s question still stands as it would seem by his quotes that he is talking about the type of people like some of the “cows” here not children brought up in a non Jewish enviroment.
However check out the Rebbe’s talk on this subject:
Every Jew Has A Silver Lining http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/47/03.htm
March 11th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
mohammed,
it is a very interesting Rambam you quoted, because of the mashmous of being begeder poyresh midarckei tzibur without having to do any major (or even minor) aveyros. However, the title of your post is misleading. As you know there are plenty o “nice” rambams in hil” tzedokoh and elswhere. In the teshuvah you quoted, he brings rav wallenberg (tzitz eliezer) who is magdir the category of porshey midarkei tzibur as the enemy of the people (he actually says these words), that being the taam of this rambam. Separating from them is a matter of national survival. These halochos are not knas for reshoim, but a geder for tzadikim (achronim say that legabey eyn koyvrim rosho im tzadik, which is one of these halochos). every nation, religion, state as to have an identity as well as something to die for adn something to kill for. These halachos only apply to avaryonim lehachis, people who do not want to be a part of this nation. any system must execute “with us or against us” policy.
It doesn’t say anywhere that we must enjoy hating minim, it is just a necessity.
I wonder if lemayseh cows have the din of porshei medarkei tzibur?
I’d say not, because ruboh deruboh haltzach yiddish as far as identity and haynt there is a whole tzibur of people like that, not medakdek bemitvos exactly, yet that consider themselves part of this umoh.
I would think that the fact that there are large yiddishe kfutzos of poyshim canges the way we look at these dinim, no?
March 11th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
kolbayar, thank for the thoughtful comment but it is all very basic common sense, is it not?
the question is then what is the inner motivation of he prophet to place the emphasis . I repeat this is the only question.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Dear Pot,
You called?
Best Wishes,
The Kettle
March 11th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
VOX POP, pathetic, intellectually impotent slime.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
“Somewhere I offended you”
Well, that narrows it down to just about everyone.
VP
March 11th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Tzemach, I do have a modicum of common sense and I hate myself for it. Torah hates common sense-daas balhbayis is a hefech fun daas toyroh.
Seriously, many people don’t look at these things as I interpreted them here. Just as an example, graddeh very much nogeyah to our discussion, most people understand the famous Rambam in hil gittin koyfim oysoy ad sheyomar roytze ani…” to mean that his neshomoh wants to to good etc.
No such thing! farkhert, the mashmous of the loshn horambam is “kivan sherotzo liyoys meisroel” that he wants to be considered part of this nation, meaning as his identity quest, it is psychologically too burdensome for him to write himself out of his people. None of the touchy-feely bs about neshomoh and penimyus.
Social facts, and this is how i look at these rambams here too.
It is a moderneh gisha, it may seem poshut to you, but to oylom hatoyroh it is not.
As to your question about the prophet, his intention etc. please explain, I did not understand one word you said.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
kolbayar, collision of the worlds is impermeable.
it is sad.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
VOX POP, you are useless slime.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
kolbayar, I already wrote what I have to say about this post, read up.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Nyah, nyah, nyah. In the words of the immortal Pee Wee Herman, “I know I am, but what are you?”
You seem to be running out of sticks and stones. Have you ever heard of a thesaurus? after you learn to pronounce it, you may try using one.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
You are hiding behind the stupid abbreviation with specific purpose of attacking me. You created this to attack me and then you post under a different name.
This should not be allowed if it was a decent blog.
I repeat you just jealous. Get lost.
March 11th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
well, duh!
March 11th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
i don’t know if you the washed up hippie with mediocre knowledge about everything but if you are you should not be allowed to change names.
March 11th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I repeat, Learn to ponounce “thesaurus” (without moving your lips, of course), then use one. (and wipe the spittle from your chin.)
March 11th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
and i agree with mohammed. go talk to the rebbe in the smirnoff bottle, I’m out of patience. and bored.
March 11th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
It’s amazing that rather than actually commenting on how this issue deligitimizes and ostracizes most of us from our family and original community and the emotional consequences of such , we turn to juvenile name calling amongst ourselves , the only semblance of community we may still have chance at .
Are we too homophobic to admit and show that we may still have some feelings left?
Shame on us all , for we cannot face ourselves .
Poems are nice and all , but the biggest tikun for this blog is if one person would stand up and say
“IT HURTS” .
We dont have to be all bitchy and sentimental about it all the time. But common .. Why are we in denial??
Some of us are middle age and we still havent said it once.
“IT FUCKING HURTS”
March 11th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
“collision of the worlds is impermeable.”
The subject of collision of worlds deserves a sparate post, perhaps a separate lifetime to come to terms with. It is impermeable?How well said. It is unbearable and impossible. you don’t know half of it. Somehow the people described in Hillel Goldbergs book “between Berlin and Slobodka’ got through it without sacrificing their sanity, except maybe for prof. harry wolfson.
Multiple worlds are impossible, impossible!
March 11th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
behind the bushes,
gut gezokt! but to be honest about it, I don’t know enough about the Rambam (and certainly not enough about this particular toireh) to do anything more than listen to those who do. Like Mohammed, for instance. But mistah kurtz, he gone.
Yalhak
March 11th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
this blog is crap, people change the nicks, this should not be allowed. This is the very basic. People triangulate between the debaters instead of arguing ideas. This is beyond the pale. Despicable. I will never post here again. Now for good.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
behind the bushes, this is what I was saying, read all my comments!!!!! you can’t separate quotes from what person and what he is and feels!!!!!! READ!!!!
March 11th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
jewish legacy is lethal it manufactures zombies.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain, you are mot a Kohain, you are a goy.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
“this blog is crap . . . I will never post here again. Now for good.”
– behind the bushes, this is what I was saying, read all my comments!!!!! you can’t separate quotes from what person and what he is and feels!!!!!! READ!!!!
– jewish legacy is lethal it manufactures zombies.
– Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain, you are mot a Kohain, you are a goy.
and still counting.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
I sold him my Kehunah and upon transfer of funds I became a goy.
Who the fuck cares ? Kohein Levi Mamzer Tseduki Mumar etc.
These are all prehistoric territorial labelings . Move on for Christs sake..
another thing Tzemach,
Maybe you are trying to get to the same place eventually that I am , but unfortunately I believe that most of us have lost you two or three comments in.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
BTB,
didn’t my check bounce?
Yalhak
March 11th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Its ok.
I didnt need the money . I just needed the kinyan to be chal. I couldnt deal with being a kohein much longer. too much responsibility , and i didnt think i deserved it. after all what did i do to get it. just the fact that my ancestors sat on theie asses and didnt join the crew in egypt? and plus the fact that i could become a goy?
fuck the check..
keep your money, you fucking kike
March 11th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
what do you mean you lost me, you didn’t understand what I was saying?
March 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
let me say words are useless, the only thing that matters are motivation, emotions and reasons behind the words.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Tzemach
“let me paraphrase.
if I don’t know you, if I don’t understand the context of who you are, then the quotes are dead as a discarded email.
This is important point for you to realize. You can’s be heard if you speak from behind the emotional iron curtain. ”
In other words, you’re telling me you can’t deal with objective facts? You can’t relate to an issue unless you can attack someone ad hominem?
Have you ever heard of kabel es huemes mimi sheoimroi?
March 11th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
this is hopeless
March 11th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
BTB,
One says i’m a goy, the other says im a kike. heavens, i’m so confused i don’t know what to do.
actually, though, i’d prefer to be a goy. fact is, though, when i participated in the jewish genome/kohain genome studies I secretly hoped i would come up a goy. they get all the breaks. but no such luck. in either case.
yalhak
March 11th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
a quote is not an objective fact, moron.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
whoever you are you are mask, a goy pretending to a jew, a cohen, a muslimm a jungian, etc. You put all the masks on so you never have to be yourself, but you not all of the above, except goy that is.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Famous (next-to) last words:
“this blog is crap . . . I will never post here again. Now for good.” — Rav Tzemach haGadol
March 11th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
kolbayaar
this post was in response to people freaking out over my mazel tov post.
Taking the rambam at his word, he didn’t care about every jew just because they’re jewish.
I wouldn’t take the shmitz eliezers squirming around, trying to reconcile the rabbanuts behavior with sources that pretty much directly contradict him, for anything more than it is, second rate rationalizations.
I find it funny that both the irreligious (daatemet) and the religious recognize the blatant hypocrisy of the mizrachi-aguda on this issue.
The exact geder of poirshim midarke tzibur is unclear, but he says porku oil mitzvois meal tzavorom. that’s certainly not “no major or minor aveiros”
it’s also not someone doing lehachis because an oiver even one aveiro lehachis is a mumar lechol hatoiro kula.
outdated 19th century nationalism is not a part of jewish law or philosophy. leave that to the bastardized national religious version of “judaism” it’s not part of ours.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
you are a clown that lives inside exotic masks. your contributions are hollow because you put them on as kabuki decorations.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
That was radloh not tzemach
March 11th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Tzemach so cruel, ouch that must hurt
March 11th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
moron-asshole moron-asshole
that the rambam says this is an objective fact.
you don’t exist and your opinion of me is meaningless. if you want to have a rational discussion about issues, feel free. until then, go talk to the rebbe in the smirnoff bottle. or actually follow up on your threat/promise to leave the site instead of posting I quit every two minutes and then disappointing us.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
“this blog is crap . . . I will never post here again. Now for good.” — tzemach hagadol
– behind the bushes, this is what I was saying, read all my comments!!!!! you can’t separate quotes from what person and what he is and feels!!!!!! READ!!!!
– jewish legacy is lethal it manufactures zombies.
– Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain, you are mot a Kohain, you are a goy.
– this is hopeless
– a quote is not an objective fact, moron.
– whoever you are you are mask, a goy pretending to a jew, a cohen, a muslimm a jungian, etc. You put all the masks on so you never have to be yourself, but you not all of the above, except goy that is.
– you are a clown that lives inside exotic masks. your contributions are hollow because you put them on as kabuki decorations.
Not only does our resident gadol need a thesaurus so he can start using more than the three words in his vocabulary, but he also needs a dictionary to look up the meaning of “never.”
March 11th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
the only objective fact is that you quoted the rambam. what rambam meant is not an objective fact.
your motivations and background is also not an objective fact but in reality the only important fact pertinent to this conversation.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
yalhak,
once the binding transaction was consummated I became the goy and you in turn became the Jude , with all the ramifications included in such a transformation. Thus, the love for money and the crowning of kikeousity.
I’m also making notice of to how even underneath all the Jungian and Sabbatean toires you still exhude a true siman of jewish guilt. you still wish you were a goy and wouldnt be judged for chilul shabbos.
Do you think Shabbsai Tzvi had jewish guilt?
I do.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Tzemach,
I’m a goy that has a jewish soul in me that you can only dream of…………………..and believe me, have no interest in being a drag queen jew.
btb, IT fucking hurts. Day in and day out.
Mo………I really wish i could read hebrew, but it really does not matter. Feeling IT much more important.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
SBYL,
Its bad enough us jews believe in this fucking nonsense about the jewish soul.
Can we please not spread it ….
March 11th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
nobody knows much about souls
stop being a clown with all the names, religions and personalities.
it is a shallow and hollow game, and it shows.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
BTB,
you might very well be right. i’m thinking of the 10th statement in the piece I wrote (and which is listed, not by me, as the 4th “classic post” on this blog), “The Apocrypha of Jacob Frank:”
FROM “THE APOCRYPHA OF JACOB FRANK” BY YAKOV LEIB HAKOHAIN:
10. On his death-bed, the Holy Second, Baruchia, asked me, “And those whom God loves?”
“He afflicts with suffering,” I answered.
“Well answered. But those whom He hates?”
“The Prophet says, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated’.”
“And the descendants of Jacob?”
“Every hand is turned against them.”
“And those of Esau?”
“They wear fine robes and swords on their belts, and every man calls them Lord.”
“Again, well answered, Yankif Leib. Go, then, and become a Gentile. Save the
Jews from the curse of God’s love, and receive the blessings of His hatred.”
Yalhak
March 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
cut and paste crap is another mask.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
btb, Hah!!!
March 11th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
you are still a goy.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Goy kadosh
March 11th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
your motivations and background is also not an objective fact but in reality the only important fact pertinent to this conversation.
Who the fuck are you having the conversation with then? Certainly not with me. I made it pretty clear that I’m not planning on discussing that. Back to the Rebbe in the smirnoff bottle.
In any case, that’s not this conversation, it’s a totally different conversation. Everyone but you is discussing the Rambam.
Sorry Shaul
I don’t have patience to translate more than one word a day.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Mohammed,
I’m glad to see a human side to the terrorist I once knew.
It’s too bad though, that somebody has to piss you off real bad for it to be revealed.
Leave poor Tzemach alone. He really just wants his mommy. Trust me , you have nothing to do with it.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
SHAUL: also gut gezokt. yasher koach for your courage.
BEHIND THE BUSHES: my “cut-and-paste” comment was meant for you, not the guy at the back of the line, because i felt it was pertinent to the (excellent) point you were making. particularly about AMIRAH.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
courage??? he cursed murdered jews. You are really a goy! A jew would never say somehting like this.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
(you WERE making a point, weren’t you?)
March 11th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Yalhak,
Nice.Very Nice.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
BTB,
Todah rabah. And yeah, I agree, we should leave poor Tzemach alone already. I think we’ve made our point, even if he hasn’t gotten it. I’d much rather hear more from you and Mohammed.
Yalhak
March 11th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Tzemach,
There’s something I want you to understand, first, I find some the of things you have to say here on cow to be genuinely powerful, you have this Kafka like feel about you. Second, what i said to btb, “It fucking hurts……” was not a curse as you referred to. the “IT”=God……And last, you don’t need to tell me that Im a goy….I all ready know that, it really does not matter. Worry about what you are my friend.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
the curse comment was addressed to mohamed yemach shmo.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
For those of you at home keeping score.
Tzemach has once again (and again, and again, and again, and again) announced that he will never post on this site.
Mohammed
“this post was in response to people freaking out over my mazel tov post …
Taking the rambam at his word, he didn’t care about every jew just because they’re jewish.”
Yet how exactly do those murdered in Mercaz harav fall into the category of “Porshim” that you appeal to authority to celebrate their deaths?
“outdated 19th century nationalism is not a part of jewish law or philosophy.”
Yet a shtreimel, a sirtuk, “shtirmpf” vaiseh zuken and the rest of the Chasidishe livush is part of “jewish law and philosophy.”
And considering that many of those who post on this site are “porshim” shouldn’t someone like you not be hanging out with these people?? I’m sure there are halachos that forbid fraternizing with apikorsim.
My point isn’t to criticize either of you, but just to show that you are engaging in the most Jewish of constructs, picking and choosing sources and appealing to these authorities to justify your morality/Derech/world view.
This site would suck without either Mohammed or Tzemach. So please, let’s not be banishing anyone, or even encouraging anyone to leave (And I have been called a moron, by Tzemach and other choice names by Mohammed).
For those who come to this site to read poetry, go to Barnes and Nobles.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
kovi, you can’t steal my points in the middle of bashing me.
my objection is also about people changing the nicknames, like the goy does all the timy if you create a nickname to attack someone.
and yes indeed this is my last thread. I will no longer comment here.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
“My point isn’t to criticize either of you, but just to show that you are engaging in the most Jewish of constructs, picking and choosing sources and appealing to these authorities to justify your morality/Derech/world view.”
and my 1st comment to this post:
“the problem with quotes in general and jewish quotes in particular in light of our long opinionated history there is always a quote to support any given stance.”
March 11th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
I’m sorry, I should have read your whole thread.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
BTW: I wasn’t bashing you.
And if this is truly your last post:
“I wish there was somethin’ you would do or say
To try and make me change my mind and stay
We never did too much talkin’ anyway
So don’t think twice, it’s all right”
–Bob Dylan
March 11th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
there is no conversation on this blog, it is dead.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
its a freak show.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
this is not my las post but it is my last comment on the 7fc.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Tzemach,
This blog is a like most drugs. Your first hit is amazing. Then you spend the rest of your life shooting up, trying to capture the high of the first hit.
That’s why I know you’ll be back.
Besides, you seem to have eaten the kashe of tomchei temimim which means you’re fucked for life. and like myself, and far too many of us out there, no one will ever truly understand the baggage you carry (and I married a shrink). And so you’ll come back here trying to connect with people who may have a smidgeon of what it means to have been indoctrinated that the “Rebbe is der tatteh and Tomchei Tmimmim is der mameh” all the while feeling as if you were an unplanned pregnancy.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
q. What do tzemach and radloh have in common?
a. they both keep on claiming to leave here
March 11th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
100
March 11th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
kovi, you are a moron because you can only project. it is not working.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
It’s good to have you back.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
i am one of the bad guys my zeide was talking about and it seems like my parents intend to live by his words, also my sister
March 11th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
mohammed you nut case, this has nothing to do with mercaz harav. it has to do with us, your goddamn friends, (possibly your only friends?)
you fucking hypocrite.
usually i don’t talk like this. you’re a stand in for my anger as you can read above.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:11 am
just to quote from tanya end of ch. 32:
ומ”ש בגמ’ שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ”כ לא שב מחטאו כמ”ש בס’ חרדים אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע”ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו’ אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה’ ועבודתו ולכן נקראי’ בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו’ אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה’ והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג”כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי’ הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי’ גלות בתוך הרע מס”א הגובר עליה ברשעי’ והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ”ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה”עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו’ אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר”פ ט”ז דשבת
]:
& even on this last line, yesh likhaleyk between them & the stam “porkey oyl” of the rambam. & it is known that MMS restricted & qualified even this last line.
if remember correctly, the rambam in hilkhos tshuvah ch. 3 only mentions minim apikursim kofrim & mumrim, but not porkey oyl. i think the magid mishneh ad locum has a long shuez on the different gedorim of mumar etc.
also, there his classifies them as not having oylom haboh. here, it is that they’re not part of klal yisroel as per mitzvos performance & are “free” to themselves like other nations. there seems to be some distinction here.
the term בני חורין לעצמן כשאר האומות does sound more like the sin of zionism, more than any of the terms used in hilkhos tshuvah.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:25 am
“Rebbe is der tatteh and Tomchei Tmimmim is der mameh”
==============
un der mesader kiddushin is geven?
March 12th, 2008 at 12:26 am
“Rebbe is der tatteh and Tomchei Tmimmim is der mameh”
I now see the appeal of the virgin birth
March 12th, 2008 at 12:57 am
and in blood red lipstick
i scrawl
on the bathroom mirror
help me
i’m being held captive
but nobody notices
March 12th, 2008 at 1:04 am
“Did the rambam care about his fellow jew?”
about the rambam we can kler but about you mohammed we have no sofek.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:47 am
neturey karta, mohammed’s views included, are wimps shebiwimps. not one ever blew themselves up on an eged bus in solidarity with their palestinian brider, or to fulfill mitzvas mekhias apikorsim.
even the rambam who states (yesodey hatorah ch. 5) that im neherag h”z miskhayev binafshoy, admits that by the 3 aveyroys it is the opposite. & surely zionism includes all 3 & then some.
next time you preach, put your spilled kishkes where your puste pisk is.
until then, shut the fuck up.
or take hirsh, weiss, goldstein et al. with you & blow up merkaz harav teykef umiyad.
at least before its time to burn the flag (purim).
March 12th, 2008 at 5:20 am
BHB
Why do you think I’m pissed? And wtf are you talking about?
Kovi
I don’t understand why everyone fixated on Poirshim. The applicable reference was vechayn haminim vehamshimudim.
Do you have to ask why I consider zionists minim?
A distinctive levush is part of jewish philosophy, the specifics changed according to the time and place.
I don’t believe you can find me even one mekor for nationalism before mizrachi.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:31 am
Zoro
again, I brought this for minim and meshimudim, not poirshim. What poirshim is is not clear, but it’s apparently another form of apikoires. The rambam in pirush hamishnayes in sanhedrin brings it down by the ayn luhem chelek loilum habu.
I think they fit into the last line of the tanya, which I happened to learn. I have no idea how mms limited it, and I don’t particularly care. (that’s not to say I wouldn’t be interested in seeing it) but I take that last line kepshutoi.
your logic escapes me. avoide zoro is from the 3 chamurois, does that mean I should blow up a church?
arayois is also, should I blow up a whorehouse?
yehoreg ve’al yaavoir is if they try to force you to believe, not on what they do themselves.
March 12th, 2008 at 6:45 am
why is everyone fixated on poirshim?
because that’s what’s interestng in this rambam. apikorsim and meshumadim are already mentioned in a much jucier rambam in hil rotzeach per 4 hal 10. For biur shitos rishonim on min, apikores vech, see chazon ish yoreh deah chelek bais. Over there he says that the rambam holds that mumar leachis is a min, at least legabey shechita and therefore shechitoso neveilah, whereas mumar leteavon only needs bedikas hasakin. Here, in aveilus, rambam means only those leachis, as is mashma from hil rotzeach and hil teshuvoh. What exactly makes merchaz harav minim? don’t tell me g” shevuos.
Is’t it your bad will not to me somech on the chazon ish to be melamed zchus on minim? i mean the chazon ish in hat same siman that says that minim are ony shayach b’shas nisim geluim etc?
March 12th, 2008 at 6:58 am
gentlemen,
ahhh. now THIS is takeh a mechaiyeh. Now THIS (along with radloh’s poetry and shitalphin’s wit) is what i come to 7fc for. I may not entirely understand it (being, like Frank, illiterate in Hebrew), but der neshuma farshtaist.
yalhak
March 12th, 2008 at 7:20 am
or why wouldn’t you at least consider it before being mevatel aseyh d’oraysoh of aveilus (if you were their koruv)? or before the lav of retzicho?
Further, it is mevuar in poskim that these dinim (moridim veloy malin ) need bais din. I wonder if they need b”d for eyn misavlin? Or who decides if the din is applicable, it is bitul deoraysoh, after all. Im not sure if b’d decides legabey moridin whether someone gets toyar “min” and therefore all halochos of min apply and if he’s not a min none of them do, or perhaps b’d decides only about moridin, but other halochos of min aplly without psak b’d? the second gang doesn’t make much sense.
Also, regarding our case,
what about the gemoroh san 47 a:
mi ko medamis neherag mitoych rishoy le meys mitoych rishoy, meis mitoych rishoy kivan d’oorchei komais lo havey ley kopporeh vechu…
(thank you e-daf!)
that is said lgabey ein koivrim,why should be ein misavlin any different?
i’d like to see that ovel rabosi which is the rambams mekor. can anyone produce it?
thank you
March 12th, 2008 at 7:37 am
better yet, my edaf page finally loaded. the chiluk of neharg and meis is said legabey cohen being metameyh for his kroivim. if the kroivim are reshoyim, kohen is not metameh for them. rmbam brings this halchocho in perek 2 in ovel hal. 8. Achronim (magid or kesef) shtel tzu that halocho to eyn mesavlin. So bepashtus it looks like the chiluk of meis/neherag apliesto both, no?
March 12th, 2008 at 8:24 am
I just saw what you did to Tzemach. You worked him up and he left. Again. About the cow it is said: “America, what have you done to uncle Tzemach when he came from Russia”. You people are echt reshoim. I mean it. Moronic inferno ablaze, you let all sorts of kaley daas and wortles vermin spew their stupidity all over this site, fine. You’re trying to be all beshtianic, how nice. But when you finally get someone of value you have to paynik him. Booz lochem, reshoim! Fuck you all, you should all peyger misoh meshoonoh teykef umiyad. Svolochi!
J’irai cracher sur vos tombes!!!!
There was a famous story in the Volozhiner yeshivoh (gradeh quoted in zichroynes of a cartain chabadzker who learned there in that tekufoh, Yehudoh Leib Donyachia) about a bocher that had once said something not 100% oysgeahaltn in private and other bochrim snitched to the Netziv whic reulted in him getting redifos. He than stood up in front of the whole yeshivoh and said a drosheh that made huge royshem.
In the drosheh he askd why were doyeg and achitofel caled reshoim by Dovid hamelech, if they wren’t mechalel shabbos or didn’t eat treifos? he answered that kinui “roshe” applies to someone who persecutes the weak and worships the strong. I will try to type up the tamzis hadvorim for you when I get to yidishe oysyes. Don’t you think, soyney hashem veamoy, that you could be yoytze being reshoim by chillul shabbos. You rishus lies in this very nekudoh.
Tzemach is fun unzereh, our concerns are his concerns. A bocher vos zitzt un horvet in toldos am isroel. A kenner! a tayreh! a gutter!
Yet nobody stands up for him here. Everyone gets farkoyft to the alterer katle kanyeh, cause he knows how to chanfer mentchen. You will do anything for a little hanifeh, you will sell your own soul. cause all you ever want and need is unconditional love. despicable cunts. Geitz aleh lernen bartanureh mit der alterer goy.
If one of you makes peulos to bring Tzemach back and mechabed him koruiy, I will be one from here forever, so help me God. And you can all go to hell.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:26 am
[…] Comments kolbayar on Did the rambam care about his fellow jew?radloh on Did the rambam care about his fellow jew?kolbayar on Did the rambam care about his fellow jew?kolbayar on Did the rambam care about his […]
March 12th, 2008 at 8:28 am
yigal amir is a kitrug on all of the nk. he believed in his bs. at the very least the tziyonim have a din of rodeph by actively inculcating others but the nk stands around and makes hafgones. with such nitur no wonder the karta’s in the shape it is. at least they should all pick up and move to gaza. that would be a political statement.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:12 am
kol bayaar
wrong. it’s mefuresh that you don’t need beis din for moiridin, elu kol hakoidem lehorgoi zocho.
the chazon ish, which is a daas yochid and far from pashtus, is only talking about moiridin. not aveilus or any of the other haloches . when neherag mitoich risho is applicable is a big diyun in shaalo utshuva sforim. I remember seeing that not always, and not by meshumodim but I don’t remember the where or the exact quote.
if one of the meforshim shtel zu to ein misablin I would like a quote.
all you see from tumah is that he had a kaporo after misa, and vayaavoyr hurino bamachane-baavoid reshuim rino is by achov who was neherag.
I also remember a chiluk between neherag biydei malchus or stam.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:41 am
mo,
the din of kol hakoydem is only leachar sheisparsem, before that you zicher need b”d
could be that only b’d can make the pirsum
however if you kill them without b’d, could be that you’re potur ….
Ridvaz in your halocho says beferush that neherag mitoych rishoy applies beaveilus
March 12th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Why would some one want to slander the Rambam ?
Could such a person himself love his fellow Jew ?, doesn’t he have anything better to do.
Love those who love hashem
March 12th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
kolbayaar
the mishna brura in one of the haloches about mumar says straight out that you don’t need b”d or even edim for pirsum. unfortunately I don’t remember the exact reference right now.
If I get a chance I’ll look at the ridvaz. there should be a tshuvas chasam soifer on this somewhere.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
that would be interesting
i’d like to see the m’b and the ch’s
(even though they are both from the “mean” school of thought and psak, i.e revisionist)
as far as the tzushtel of tumoh to eyn misavlin, it’s pshitus loshn horambam: kol eylu sheomarnu sheyn misavlin aleyhem….eyn kohen nitmeh lohem. b’erech like that.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
so far i see from the gemoroh that korban, shechita, tumoh and eyn misavlin is one inyan.
the gemoro shtels them tzu together.
the shaile is if they re bar zevicho, or if they are meamoy, i.e if they can be considered yiden for these things.
i don’t know about moridin and how the chiluk goes yet
p.s
you are a ben toyreh I wish you were misnaheg as such towards tzemach
March 12th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
tzemach was krikhing af glatte vent he wanted to communicate with mohammed on an emotional level. one, it might be impossible, two, he doesn’t want to. do him something. so tzemach just keeps haaking his alter droshes. he has no sense of democracy. you want elitism go to the misnagdim.
March 12th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
mohammed doesn’t have emotions, ecstasy would only have a placebo effect on him
March 12th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
there’s no intrinsic difference. the shaale would be when he got his kapore, and if you should mourn the fact that he got one.
if the miso was mechaper, then he wasn’t a kosher meyisroel shemes, and I find it hard to believe that you say bo’in ke’echod.
March 12th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
finally a comment from shitalpin that I really like.
March 12th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
This post will be the most commented post!!!
March 12th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
radloh- take it up w him??? he’s dead. in case you didn’t know. it seems a lot of people don’t realize that. I take it up w them.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
did the rambam care about his fellow jews?
do frum parents care about their kids?
March 12th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
I heard the rambam posed as a muslim for 4 years
before he went to Egypt and later went to trial
over it.
March 12th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
let us also not forget the obvious - the fact that the rambam is just codifying the talmud not making up his own law. if anybody is making things up it would be chasidishe varemkayt. if not at god’s feet it is at the feet of the pharisees we must lay this.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Rambamistim the best religion!
March 13th, 2008 at 7:27 am
RAMBAM RULES !
March 13th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Is writing about Mohammed, lashon horah?
March 13th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Radloh,
I don’t know if your post on mohammed helps or exacerbates the situation at hand.
Imagine, he expressed sympathy for a “shtik drek”, a “menuval”, a “meshukatz,” “a pusteh kayli” like you and yet he dances when those in mercaz harav are shot to death.
IT just doesn’t add up.
March 13th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
kovi
I don’t remember radlohs story, and I’m not planning on getting involved in a discussion about my personality, but what doesn’t add up?
You don’t understand the difference between a mumar leteyovoin and a min?
March 13th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
well, i’ve never met mohammed, but i’ve read and locked horns with him on 7fc (and i still carry the bruises) for the past two years.
my impression of him is that he’s a man of deep feelings and even deeper intellect with strong convictions and an even stronger sense of committment and self-respect.
it’s for those qualities that i respect and admire him — and not because of whether he gets weepy on mother’s day or when the little match stick girl’s teeth chatter.
abraham maslow talks of “self-actualization” and Jung of “individulation.” i think mohammed may well be the poster boy for both qualities, at least on this blog.
yalhak
March 13th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
furthermore, in the two years i’ve been spying on this blog i don’t think i have ever once seen mohammed resort to adhominim arguments or vicious name-calling — even with me.
March 14th, 2008 at 10:25 am
yalhak
I generally don’t respond to compliments. but I like them. : - )
March 14th, 2008 at 11:00 am
March 14th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
mohammed:
You don’t understand the difference between a mumar leteyovoin and a min?
Do you?
A few hooros:
1)leteovoin means only that he is oyver an issur in the absence of a heter. If issur veheter are mufkar by him, meaning shavik heteiroh veochal isuroh, that is called lehachis. Whether mumar lahachis is a min is a machloykes amoroim. Rambam paskens like ravinoh that he is a min. I’m not so sure that radloh is leteovoyn. (interesting that curiosity is also a taam leteavoyn, lemoshl someone is naygerik what does neveiloh taste like)
2) mumar leteovoyn is only for one aveiroh, but mumar lekol hatoyroh kuloh is a min.
3)the definitions of a min that i know are what rambam lists in hil teshuvo, pirush hamishnayos in sanhedrin. Other than that whoever is oyver on mitzvos maysyos lehachis is a min. To which category do merkaz horav talmidim fall exactly.
(it’s only mitvos deoraysoh that you have to oyver lehachis to be called min)
4)hamevazeh t”ch is an apikoreys (sanhedrin)
lechoyroh that puts you in that category if you say y’sh on kook or peysach frank vechu. at least is some smach in mekoyros to give you that shem. what’s your mekkor for the kookniks?
March 14th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
kolbayaar
I actually went through all the sugyas.
you don’t have to repeat the basics.
it’s not so poshut that an oiver derabonon lehachis is not a min, there are definitely shitos that a mechalel shabes befarhesia on a derabonon is ainoi bichlal eiruv.
I didn’t see radloh being shovik hetiero, or being oiver on kh”k. choshud is something else.
yeah, and if you say moshe mendelsohn was a t”ch than I would be a mevaze for saying ym”sh on him. or anyone else you arbitrarily decide is a talmid chochom. tpf may have only been a nimkar le’eker.
in any case, it says in sh”o that it’s mutar to be mevaze a rav mitaam. even if they weren’t apikorsim. my mekor for the kookniks ym”sh is satmar rov zy”u, minchas eluzer, r’ chaim brisker, the chofetz chaim, r’ elchonon wasserman, r’ ahron katzenellenboigen and others.
more interesting that curiousity only works once per food.
March 14th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
i think there was a machloykes legabey kilaim, where on m’d said that oyver on this type of kilayim is not a min, and the gemoroh was soysem that s’l this type kilaim was derabonon= mashmah you’re only min if you oyver deoraysoh. I understand that this might not be th end of the discussion.
btw, you saw radloh post on shabbos, which is echoyreh ch’sh befarhesioh at least derabonon.
as to your mekoyros, you don’t have to repeat the basics either. If i wanted to be an annoying yu freak i’d ask you how many of them are actually printed piskei halochoh.
I am actually curious about the oysdruk y’sh, who used the in reference to kook?
Anyway, I think i already saved their lives or at least gave them enough time to hide from you untill you find that m’b that says that you don’y need b’d to kill them.
I am also curious about your opinion of the famous american pisgom “you’re not an apikoyres, you’re an am’ha”. How much do you think you have to know to ean that toyar? I mean do you think that a shaarei chemloh bocher mechunach with the “shvacher moment” theology is ever chayev anything? or a chabatzker, who thinks that god loves him no matter what? I am serious.
March 14th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
bring the gemoro on klayim, I want to see it.
posting on shabbes is zicher not parhesia, you have no way of knowing who posted from what nick or from what part of the world.
you have to know around as much as an average thirteen year old, maybe less. r’ moishe paskens anyone who grew up around frumme yidden is not a tinok shenishbe.
that’s a vertel, not lehalocho.
most of these were censored but it should be in sh’o ch”m tof chuf hey? I think and y”d resh mem ches. I hope I got the simonim right, I haven’t seen them inside for years.
March 14th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
i’ll bring the gemoroh, just bear with me till i get to b’m
I love the limud zchus on radloh. You didn’t see? what about if its nisparsem? it’s more than choshud. you didn’t see these merkaz bochrim either being oyver anything.
pls spare me mendelsohn-kook ztushtel
March 16th, 2008 at 9:29 am
mohammed,
the gemoroh is is horios 11a, bottom of the page
i,m not retypeing as you can find it on e-daf
there’s a machloykes t’k and r’yossi about who’s mumar. The gemoroh asks mai beinaihu? kelaim derabonon beiynayu…It is mashmah that both tanna kammah and r’yossi hold that it’s only d’oraysoh that shafs mumar, the only makhloykes is whether kilaim derbonon has the din like d’oyraysoh because its isparsem isuroh. R’yossi would agree that other derabonons don’t make a mumar.
March 16th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I’ll look at the gemoro later. In the meantime, don’t you realize that the gemoro says the exact opposite of what you are? If it was only deoiraiso, then isparsem isuroi would make no difference. obviously, it’s any derabonon also, with the caveat that it has to be isparsem isuroi.
March 16th, 2008 at 10:22 am
does it really matter whether its mumar lteyavon/ min/ isparsem isuroi/ dorayta/ drabanan
why you debating any of it as if it matters at all
the bottom line is that most of us would be included in any of those categories and none of us give a damn
March 16th, 2008 at 10:44 am
let me rephrase,
t’k holds that isparsem issuroy doesn’t do anything
r’yossi is yochid and halachoh kerabim
kisarita, thanks for the insightful comment
March 16th, 2008 at 10:57 am
kisarita, min doesn’t apply. You aren’t a Persian sorcerer or a Xtian.
March 16th, 2008 at 11:25 am
veoyd,
the rambam brings this gemoroh in hil rotzeach
the groh says ofn ort that rambam ozil leshitosoy that the said kilaim are deoraysoh. You see that the groh wants it to be deoraysoh, like the tanna kamma.
also, you see that the rambam brings it gabey inyan lehachis,
March 16th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I just looked up the two sh”os you brought.
None of them has the din you mentioned
I had the feeling you made them up.
in yoreh deayoh there’s remoh that says farkhert mamish from what you said
it says that if there’s is a rov in a kehilah, even a self appointed, once he’s got the shteleh and is mekubol al pnei that kehiloh, you not allowed to bring him down,
March 16th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
which halocho didn’t you find where?
there’s a difference between self appointed and mitaam
March 16th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
kisarita
that’s your bottom line. my bottom line is that according to the rambam you don’t have to care for someone just because he/she was born to jewish parents. if you want to get all personal about it that’s your privelege.
March 16th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
the halocho of rav mitaam
March 16th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
anywhere in sh”o
March 16th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Well you shoulod have to care!
March 16th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
radloh you aren’t arguing w me, you’re paraphrasing me
mohammed if you believed in what you said you’d find yourself a different crew to bum with
March 16th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
what does “rambam cares” mean? Rambam is codyfing halocho, how does “care’ come in here? Hatoyroh hasoh is a toyredikeh mussag and has nothing to do with human emotions. It only says in chazal gabey few cases, usually by momoyn and means that if you can save a yid money without being mafsid someone else you do it. I never saaw it in poyskim.
The jewish tradition is errare humanum est ignoscere divinum, divinum daykah.
March 16th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
There is only one thing to care about, Your fellow Jew
March 17th, 2008 at 6:09 am
kolbayaar
the simonim I told you should’ve been moiridin ve’ayn maalin. for rov mitaam, look at the first two seifin sh”o ch”m ches.
if I have time to look them up, I’ll try to give you some more references this afternoon.
chus is not caring. in yiddish it’s tzu shoynen, the malbim teitches regard for something because of its worth.
how does care come in here? some people assume that there’s a set of emotions prescribed by the toiro vis a vis any jew. loving, caring, mourning when he dies. whether there’s any mitzva that actually deals with emotions is a different discussion. my point in this post was that it’s only applicable to sht”um
kisarita
who I hang out with is a personal choice, not a religious one.
March 17th, 2008 at 6:45 am
religion IS personal
(as well as political)
March 17th, 2008 at 9:42 am
mohammed,
I looked at the first two seifim of siman ches ch’m
of course there’s nothing there about rav mitaam. You were making a vertel. It’s the second time you quoted a mekkor that did not say what you promisse. I thought we could lead this discussion on a somewhat higher level. I guess we can’t.
Btw, the remoh in one of the seifim says farkhert from what you want the halochoh to be. He says that a kehiloh can appoint dayonim that are not hogun if there aren’t any others in that kehiloh. It says nowhere that rav mitaam is any sort of psul, other that frumeh hergeshos.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Now at days Jews are incapable of having a high level discussion
March 17th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
kolbayaar
and where was the first?
dayan dismani bechaspu is mitzva lehokel ulezalzel boy and it’s quoted in shale utshuva sforim as the basis for rov mitaam or nismane be’almus which is a kol shken.
March 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
shulcan oruch 345, 5 said the same thing Lehalacha
שולחן ערוך שמ”ה סעיף ה
March 17th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
what you wrote is nonsense. ismani bechaspu means that the dayan is noyteh in psak letoyvas who hires him. Historically rav mitaam was a rov appointed by the (goyisher) regirung baal korchom shel local kehilos. Again, it is clear that if a kehiloh accepts a dayan, he is kosher and it is not the rov mitam they talk about in the late 19th / early 20th century shu”t.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
jachnoun,
sh’o said what lehalocho?
I don’t have sh’o available
can you quote?
March 17th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
yes, but i have so much to say about it, i hate to write, call me if u want to know more, its a lot of nice interesting Tshuvot about it
the words of shulcan oruch the same as the rambam
March 17th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
i was talking about the post from Muchamad
March 17th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
oh, that
that’s very sweet of you, but that was already quoted by mohammed in the original post
March 17th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Mohammad,
was nice talking to you, but i will put it down here to
You asked if the Rambam “care” about another Jew. To satisfy your arguments you brought down the Halacha from the Rambam covering the laws of Shiva. It says that you should be happy and not sit shiva if a person was apikores. This Rambam comes from Masechet Smachot (this is the Masechet for the details of sitting Shiva and it’s called happiness for a reason). In the Masechet Smachot it says Kol Poresh Midarchei Tzibur; whoever is not committing himself to the Jewish Community and whatever they are committed to then we should be happy when he dies because an enemy of G-d died. It does not specify the commitment and neither does it say that there is no sitting Shiva for him.
In the Raan on the Rif the end of Masechet moed katan says that the Masechet Smachot talks even about a person who’s only not paying taxes as everyone else and doesn’t include himself in suffering or/and happiness.
G-d hates such person because his reaction comes from hating Jews. We, the Jewish people, hate him because G-d hates him.
———
But even if to say like Rambam when he talks about someone who’s not religious; it does not reflect what he feels about his jewish soul.
Hagaot Oshri says that Rabbeinu Gershom sat fourteen days for his son when his son converted. Seems that he was sitting fourteen days when his son converted even though he was alive. But the Taaz brings down the story of Rabeinu Gershom that he sat after his son died (I have no idea where he got it from). Same thing in the Beit Yosef and in the Rad Baz ( 558) that “Rabbeinu Gershom sat for fourteen days after his son died because he was in pain that his son didn’t become religious when he was alive”. This time of sitting wasn’t to mourn the actual death such as regular Shiva, but because he was feeling bad for his soul who didn’t become religious. As the Levush says; “He did not do to sit Avlus, he did it because he had strong pain because his son didn’t become religious.”
So it follows that even if according to the ones who agree to be happy about the actual death of a person, you should also be very pained about his soul. And even the Rambam, when he says to be happy when the actual sinned body goes down and that’s Tikkun of the bad, for sure he agreed and he wants the person to feel the pain that the Tikkun Haolam through this soul wasn’t complete in this life. To understand that, we have to understand that David himself said in the same Koppitl in the last Posuk; if he will sin more, he’d rather die. because is good for the sinner, to die then to continue doing sins what destroys him in the other world, and destroying his Tikun in this world, that’s why Mitat Reshaiim Tova Lahem to. The entire Tikun Haolom is ( Sefer Madregas Haodom) first realizing what is bad and what is good, then separating the bad from the good, and thirdly transforming the bad into good (Taharah: T is tov, Hey is this world (created with the letter H), R is Rah and Hey is the world- separating the good from the bad and making all of them to be pure and holy). In the beginning when we see that the bad is separated from the world of G-d but there is still the work of feeling bad and trying to lift this soul to the higher point of Tikun.
This is a thing that all should work on themselves to do; to be able to be very very happy about one thing (Biur Harah) but at the same time be very very sad for the other thing that should be sad on the same thing(Tikun Hara-with in his soul)). Usually when a person is happy or sad all emotions go in one direction but here you have to have some pain about the soul. I’m sure if you are talking about the feelings of the Rambam, I’m sure he was happy about dividing the bad of the world and ceasing of sinning but he was also crying tears of blood about the souls who lost chances to fix themselves.
That’s the Inyan of Amalek-Yetzer Horah that it says in Posuk that we have to kill Amalek just under the sky (mitachat hashomayim), but not above the sky in the highest spirit because at the highest level we should pick up and to Metaken this Amalek that is the bad spirit in the world and turn it into good. Yetzer Hora should be brought into the Beis Hamedrash to connect with the Tora and with the universe of G-d. That is the reason why Mordechai made Haman a slave to him. He wanted to control the Amalek spirit and that’s a bigger level than killing and separating the bad from the good physically. This is also the reason why Mordechai was not scared of the Gezeira of Haman and he told Esther that if you wouldn’t help me save the nation, G-d will help me in other ways. How did Mordechai know that G-d wanted to save the Jewish nation for sure? He knew for sure because Haman was his slave and controlled spiritually. Mordechai knew that Hashem would not bring Takalla (a fall) through Tzadikim. At that moment Haman was a slave under him, and was controlled by him.
printed by Anya
March 17th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Jachnoun, this was a very long discusion we’ve had here. It would have ben nice if you read all that’s been said here before you wrote your long drosheh.
Rambam’s mekkor is not mes.smachot, but toyras kohanim. Over there it says eyn misavlin befyrush. Not that it matters, but i’d like any participant to be familiar wih the said material.
As for the “caring for the soul” lemai nafka minah and meheychi teysi.
As for the tikkun, we said the chiluk of meys mitoych rishoy leneherag vech…regular death is not a tikkun for anything.
March 18th, 2008 at 4:34 am
Rambam is full of love, he rules even for one who has no relatives we make a mourning party. This is a remez to the tikun for the dead.
JACHNOUN , you are completely correct !
March 18th, 2008 at 7:07 am
kolbayaar
you have reading comprehension issues. dayan dismani bechaspa is when the dayan uses money to influence the elections, not when they pay him to be a dayan. and what it says is that even if he’s the most roui, it’s still mitzva lezalzel boi.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:54 am
mo,
you’re right minsmaneh bekesef means that he either uses money to be appointed or they appoint him because has money (There’s a difference lehalocho).
It still has nothing to do with rav mitaam.
Beer hagolah brings the bach ofn ort that says that this is only when he is eynoy chochom bechochmas hatoyroh.
March 18th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
kolbayar
“It would have ben nice if you read all that’s”
sorry no time for that, i said what i want to say, on the post, but also looks like u don’t have the Kelim to understand me,
March 18th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
kiruv sort of love is a very mild improvement over kill the unbelievers.
December 25th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Why Obama lies about educational reforms??
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