Choshen Mishput on Socialized Health Care
Shmarya writes,
Choshen Mishpat 163:1-3 gives a town's beit din the right to tax all residents to meet communal needs.Included in those communal needs are defensive fortifications, mikva(s), synagogue(s), and salaries for rabbis, teachers, and doctors.In other words, the community is specifically given the power to tax everyone to pay for healthcare.In the same way, halakha (Jewish law) forbids living in a town without a doctor.While this isn't the same thing as mandating socialized medicine, it does clearly establish a communal responsibility for healthcare, and halakha's mandate is far more in consonance with President Obama's vision for healthcare than it is with the Sarah Palin-Rush Limbaugh Republican version or, ironically, the Senator Joseph Lieberman version.
Judaism.com
November 26th, 2009 at 12:24 am
all it says is pay for doctors. thats very limited
November 26th, 2009 at 6:09 am
“limited” as in limited coverage? question, how in the hell does the republican soution of 48 million americans uninsured fit in with the chosehn mishput,
there is also a “koifin oisoi” added to the requisite of taxes. forces taxes for room board and health care for all… sounds like jewish socialism to me…
November 30th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
” “limited” as in limited coverage? question, how in the hell does the republican soution of 48 million americans uninsured fit in with the chosehn mishput ”
Deregulate.
And while the problem will never be solved in it’s entirety , it won’t be solved in it’s entirety the other way either. Sorry.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
dave, u make the mistake using the apostrophe in “its” twice.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
For what it’s worth, you wrote peaked instead of piqued.
November 30th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
BS”D
May this find everyone well
Before the stimulis and before the economic fallout the number of “WANTED to be insured and not” was a lot smaller.
The reason of healthcare being higher in not covered now = Small and medium well even larger business’s with in-house health care are now closed, downsized or can no-longer pay for the services for all staff and stay afloat!
The numbers are a little strange … Does it include People in the country who are not citizens? Does include those who DONT want insurance(These people for sure do exist)? Does the healthcare plan say it will now cover the President and all Government agencies with the same proposed plan and if not why? (( Remember what Obama said,” Everyone will have the healthcare of a Senator”)) Do the people on this board know that the have NON-Government healthcare that is subcontracted by a private insurance?
The deal might be this.. If we have a universal healthcare OPTION great.. Yet to demand taxation of certain groups, force fines for those who dont use or to just have 1/2 of the vote for something universal is for sure not Jewish. In the Sanhedran in ancient times if everyone voted for death a person was aloud to live because no-one showed mercy or thought to find something possitive. Here we have 1/2 by congress and that is called YES. Has anyone here read the 2000+ page proposal??
read much of it and well… For sure I dont want one person named SECRETARY choosing how most of the money and policy are put into force once the frame or shall I say blank check it put into law. Health care OPTION for everyone YES
this way NO NO NO.
All the best and A Gut Vocht,
Yehoshua
December 1st, 2009 at 5:03 am
my mistake was a typo, but your mistake tells me of your true level of education. nice to see that you used “it’s” correctly in your new comment.
December 1st, 2009 at 9:56 am
dave wrote
“Deregulate.
And while the problem will never be solved in it’s entirety , it won’t be solved in it’s entirety the other way either. Sorry.”
please provide an example of a country which has deregulated, resulting in health care for most of its citizens. the choshen mishput has a mandate, health care for all, and, i may add, it says “koifin oisoi” they force the prson to pay for the taxes leading to helth care.
your second line of reasoning that obama’s plan won’t cover all. granted, his plan is too conservative for the choshen mishput. but shmarya’s point was that obama is closer than the republicans.
yehoshua wrote,
“Before the stimulis and before the economic fallout the number of “WANTED to be insured and not” was a lot smaller.”
oh, yeah? during the 1st bush years it was 38 million, 40 million during clinton’s terms, and then up from there..
“The reason of healthcare being higher in not covered now = Small and medium well even larger business’s with in-house health care are now closed, downsized or can no-longer pay for the services for all staff and stay afloat!”
so?
“The numbers are a little strange … Does it include People in the country who are not citizens?”
the numbers do not include illegal immigrants. not that should be excluded. just saying.
“Does include those who DONT want insurance(These people for sure do exist)?”
the choshen mishput does not allow for that line of reasoning.
“Does the healthcare plan say it will now cover the President and all Government agencies with the same proposed plan and if not why? (( Remember what Obama said,” Everyone will have the healthcare of a Senator”)) Do the people on this board know that the have NON-Government healthcare that is subcontracted by a private insurance?
The deal might be this.. If we have a universal healthcare OPTION great.. Yet to demand taxation of certain groups, force fines for those who dont use or to just have 1/2 of the vote for something universal is for sure not Jewish.”
the choshen mishput which shmarya brings down contradicts what you write here. all with income are FORCED to pay for the room board and healthcare of the unfortunate citizens.
“In the Sanhedran in ancient times if everyone voted for death a person was aloud to live because no-one showed mercy or thought to find something possitive. Here we have 1/2 by congress and that is called YES. Has anyone here read the 2000+ page proposal??”
the choshen mishput would be like constitutional law. there is no vote here. this is mandated by god
“read much of it and well… For sure I dont want one person named SECRETARY choosing how most of the money and policy are put into force once the frame or shall I say blank check it put into law. Health care OPTION for everyone YES this way NO NO NO.”
as i wrote above, if anything, the obama plan does not fully implement the choshen mishput dictate.
December 1st, 2009 at 1:14 pm
from http://benatlas.com/2009/11/political-affiliations-of-the-orthodox-jews-in-america/
December 1st, 2009 at 2:05 pm
the Lubavitcher rebbe on socialism
i am the “obamanite” of whom tzig writes in the post, and “noting” in the comments section
the rebbe: “he who believes socialism and torah cannot work together does so out of ignorance”
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
“my mistake was a typo, but your mistake tells me of your true level of education. nice to see that you used “it’s” correctly in your new comment.”
typo? the apostrophe was a typo.
you genuinely thought the word had something to do with peaked as in reaching a climax or something. It’s fine. You seem intelligent enough, OT spelling and all. Case in point: I read your posts.
re. your question re. deregulation: disingenuous. there is no place on the planet that has a deregulated health care industry. but as a general rule, less regulation usually means more efficiency and cheaper prices for the consumer.
But back to the cho”m. in an economy as versatile as todays, the whole thing doesn’t even begin to apply. On the contrary: The reasoning of the cho”m is that there should be doctors i.e. to INCREASE the number of doctors and regulation today will only DECREASE the number of doctors and decrease the quality of doctors. The only thing that will increase is the time patients will have to wait to see a doctor. Take my word for this.
So while maybe the stated goal is the same as the cho”m, the effects will be precisely the opposite of what the cho”m intended and therefore places Obama the furthest from the cho”m.
December 3rd, 2009 at 8:11 pm
dave, wanna challenge me to a spelling bee. my mistakes are typos 99.9% of the time.
“But back to the cho”m. in an economy as versatile as todays, the whole thing doesn’t even begin to apply. On the contrary: The reasoning of the cho”m is that there should be doctors i.e. to INCREASE the number of doctors and regulation today will only DECREASE the number of doctors and decrease the quality of doctors.”
dave, sorry, but i believe the torah to be eternal. the choshen mishput dictates that every person should have a doctor who will provide health care. in israel i witnessed this first hand. and in israel as supposed to most other countries, the insurance providers, not the government offers the coverage for about 99% of its citizens. these insurance companies are regulated and the system works most splendidly. please explain how a deregulated health industry will provide coverage for 48 million uninsured. there are more doctors per capita in israel than in the states so i don’t know how that fits into your theory. but i guess i have to trust you on that one.
“The only thing that will increase is the time patients will have to wait to see a doctor. Take my word for this.”
in israel there is no waiting. i saw a doctor whenever i needed one and witnessed firsthand the splendid care they give to a mother giving birth, including pre-natal care. the only charge throughout was a 20 shkolim charge for the sonogram
So while maybe the stated goal is the same as the cho”m, the effects will be precisely the opposite of what the cho”m intended and therefore places Obama the furthest from the cho”m.”
what?! all of europe and israel provide health care for all their citizens. you hear? they don’t have to wait until they are severely ill, as is the case here. and obama’s plan is a specifically american plan, broadening the system already in place.
deregulation sounds about as grand as trickle down economics. it works for 5% of crown heights…
December 3rd, 2009 at 9:51 pm
two points. but before that i would never ever want to boast to ANYONE that i can win a spelling bee. even if i could win a spelling bee, i would be to embarrassed to tell even my closest friends.
the point is only that one should not shit in ones backyard.
point A. the torah being eternal and all that good stuff, while a great defense of orthodox judaism, does nothing for you regarding public policy in these united states. since when does religious belief define public policy?
i think charity is very important. i think we should all take care of our fellow man including providing him with medical care if he needs it. my religion mandates this. i also think homosexuality and adultery and abhorent and immoral and that those who engage in this, if proven, should be put to death. my religion tells me this.
god is all knowing and has all the particles of knowledge to make decisions for all of us. and since he knows whats best, he can force people to behave in certain ways.
however, this is irrelevant when dealing with a government - comprised of mere humans who have no more information than those they govern - that is not divinely inspired and is essentially amoral. while it is good for individuals to practice religion in their private lives, it is a travesty if governments try to impose it.
B. re. my “theory” that health care in single payer systems results in longer wait times - this not theory but very unfortunate fact.
i know i know, you’ll give a whole bunch of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but suffice it to say that i grew up in a country with single payer and while im glad that you personally had a wonderful experience at the expense of your fellow citizen, it does not usually work out this way. if one of my grandparents doesnt feel well and they already used up their alloted once in three months visit to the doctor, then it’s off to the emergency room for you grandma, where she could take a number and sit there till the freaking cows come home. also, should you find yourself just outside the emergency room, it is not wise to have chest pains, because then you will be told to go outside find a payphone and dial 911. deliveries this way only sir. this happened when i was a kid. the guy went out and died on the hospital steps.
Canadians who can afford to, get themselves insured in the US just in case they fall ill in the socialist utopia you have to your north. This is because no normal canadian kid worth his salt who just graduated from medical school is going to practice in Canada where he will make a pittance compared to the States.
England is completely off the charts. Theyve basically outsourced their medical care in two ways: flying to india for care (a phenomenon that is increasing rapidly) and bringing in medical school graduates from some of ammans and baghdads finest medical schools. what do you know, some of them blew up an SUV just inside the airport in glasgow. (no, socialized medicine does not always result in terror, but then again)
What will likely happen in the long run is that prices will go up, docs will be paid less and the supply of them will begin to dry up. kids will go less into medicine and more into law or whatever.
Instead of having better health care for everyone, it’s worse health care for everyone. not what the choshen mishpot had in mind
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:11 pm
whatever. go kill fags and have a good day. since you are a lubavitcher, i assume you follow the teachings of the rebbe. go to the frabrengen, purim 1986, skullfuck. don’t bother writing again since i placed you in the spam folder and have no desire to communicate with you. you can continue to read my posts…
December 7th, 2009 at 8:58 am
we do not need health care,we need fuckin doctors,mri machines medicine and hospitals that all the people who are outa work can build and work at.Making a huge profit from some-one being sick is fucking wrong,,shit you want to make the profits that those who are not even doctors are making it would be more moral to do it as a a crack dealer,until,,,until,until the least of this world,the lowest of the low,that starvining child in africa who is going to die by the time i am thru writing this,,is goin to die because the people who have the food,who have the medicine,to save it’s life,but who do not because they will not fuckin share,,until this issue is adressed,,this health care fuckin bullshit aint nothin but a farce and a distractuion,,so we do not have to think of the least of OUR brothers and siters because we are de-sensiticed to the plight of them by the lies fed/shoveled down on our throught-minds,,untill then,,we are all fucked,,and those lower than us,are already dying,,,i do not have the answers,,i just know who does,,and tho i ask,and plead,and beg on their behalf,,sometimes She aint always so quick to answer,tho still IT is where i find the only hope,,the root,,,good fine day to you,,,,,,,as always,,,,,,,love,,,,,,,yesod